Posted by: anyakless | October 19, 2011

High Priestess and Founder of CAYA Coven Responds to the Controversial Lilith Rite at PCon

Scanning The Wild Hunt today, I saw a link to a blog post by Yeshe Rabbit, the founder and high priestess of CAYA coven. In the essay, she gives her perspective and personal experiences of the controversial Lilith Rite at PantheaCon 2011, presented by the Amazon Priestess Tribe, a sub-group of CAYA. I first responded to this incident, from the perspective of a priestess of Lilith, here. A follow up post can be found here.

Coming eight months after the incident itself (although a statement had been issued earlier), Rabbit’s post is rather long, as it details the parameters of her relationship with Z Budapest, the rationale of CAYA coven, P-Con itself, and the aftermath she experienced.

There definitely seems to be some distancing from Budapest’s hateful comments about transwomen in the comments section of my first blog response (which seem finally confirmed here as genuinely from her). Rabbit’s language around that, however, is a bit vague:

And into this, Z arrived, and she came swinging. While I honor Z’s many, many contributions to women’s culture and feminine spirituality, I cannot condone speech that is filled with hate, neither against me nor on my behalf. I would not and have not communicated my opinions in those terms. I respect Z’s right to hold whatever opinions, thoughts, and practices she chooses, and my expectation is that we are all given that freedom to do, think, speak, or feel as we choose. My reasons for creating specific sacred spaces are not merely rote from my Tradition; they are my own, and I believe each of us has the right to create our own sacred spaces as we wish.

While Rabbit says that she would not have used such hateful terms to share her opinion, she notably does NOT say that her opinion differs from Budapest’s own. And while all of us have the right to freely think and feel as we like, hateful speech against communities that already suffer violence and discrimination from the leader of another community that has also suffered is particularly disappointing. There seems to be more emphasis on religious freedom here than a recognition of a common enemy in those who would dictate and police gender norms.

Beyond this, there are a few things about this piece that caught my eye:

–The repeated use of the phrase “unbeknownst to us” to describe the events before, during, and after the P-Con ritual. It begins to sound like Rabbit believes they were set up, particularly in her comments that a protest about gendered space had already been planned. Sadly I don’t know enough about the event to confirm or deny that.

–The shying away from biological terms for female bodies in favor of the more amorphous term “yoni.” For example, “WE DO ASK THAT ALL PARTICIPANTS AT AMAZON RITUALS BE ABLE TO BE NAKED AND ALLOW THEIR YONIS TO BE PRESENT IN THE RITUAL SPACE.” My gender identity is relatively straightforward, and even I’m not sure I’d know how to “allow my yoni” to be present. What is this mysterious thing? A vagina? The spirit attached to one? Its innate power? Perhaps this is ignorance on my part, but I do find the reliance on this term to be purposefully vague here. It allows her to sidestep the pressing question of how “womanhood” is being defined.

–Stemming from the last statement, the requirement or importance of nudity for the rite in question seems rather unclear here as well. What does it mean that participants must “be able to be naked” while also saying, “We did not ask any woman to remove more clothing than she was comfortable with.” It seems like full nudity doesn’t matter. Does it? If so, why is the possibility important? The phrase “be able to be naked” begins to seem like it means “have what we would recognize as a woman’s body under those clothes.” If that’s what they mean, fine, but say it. Don’t dance around what you mean. This is what got them in trouble in the first place.

And that brings me to what I think is the most important point of response. Rabbit says this about writing the program description for the Rite:

When I was writing the proposal for PCon 2011 about the Rite of Lilith, I made a crucial error in not specifying that this was a nude ritual designed for women. Although I used the terms “Amazon” and “skyclad” in my description of the rite, I take full personal responsibility that these terms are not universally clear.

Many people reacting to this incident have downplayed it as an unfortunate misunderstanding caused by the omission of key details. However, Rabbit’s language here makes clear that this confusion was caused by an assumption about the meaning of the words she chose to use. In saying “Amazon” and “skyclad,” she mistook that these words are “not universally clear.” The assumption here is that these words specify ciswomen and their able-to-bleed bodies. By correcting herself and saying that she should have said “a nude ritual designed for women,” she almost makes it worse. It makes the same assumption as to who qualifies as “woman.” “Unbeknownst” to CAYA coven, a lot of people read themselves into that description who were not included in that definition. CAYA coven needs to recognize that their definition of that word is becoming less and less universal. And, if you think about it, isn’t fighting against a narrow definition of what makes one a “woman” what feminism is all about?

I have never disagreed with any group’s right to include or bar anyone from a ritual. However, if you want to do so, say so explicitly. Know that you do not hold sole rights of definition and identification surrounding certain terms. If you want a rite for only people capable of menstruating, say so. Don’t use vague, mysterious, pagan-y words as a cover.

Ironically, Rabbit mentions another P-Con ritual that barred anyone currently menstruating, saying that it was not protested despite what she sees as potential misogyny. However, comments from designers of that ritual in the comments section suggest that she’s gotten her facts wrong here (they’re worth a read to get a fuller story). This is doubly ironic, as most of her own post decries what she sees as misinformation about her own group’s ritual.

Finally, as I wrote in my initial blog response, groups need to be aware of the communities certain gods attract. Lilith calls to people in the Dianic tradition, transgender pagans, Satanists, magicians, witches, Jews, atheist radical feminists, and everyone in between. It bears repeating: in my years of experience as a priestess of Lilith, I know that those who transgress boundaries of gender to be beloved of her. What a shame to create a ritual at a large gathering that would exclude them. Despite my feelings, groups are certainly within their rights to hold exclusive rites for gods that fit their particular demographic. A large gathering where many of these people may be gathered seems to be a poor choice of venue.

Our gods and their communities are evolving. To assume that a skyclad Rite of Lilith for “Amazons” will automatically attract a narrowly defined set of people is naive and frankly outdated thinking. In many accounts, Amazons are known for slicing off a breast to better fit their war gear, an act that to some might make them transgender icons.


Responses

  1. And Samael calls on innocent unsuspecting girls. Oh, the glory of the gods.

  2. Sometimes I straight up “see” Lilith with a penis. Point is that no matter what, one can do what they want to do when it comes to worship or express their own opinion. But nobody can’t speak in absolute for any Diety. I don’t fit into any common category presented here, but she loves me nonetheless. It’s disappointing when groups who are at a disadvantage in society clash like this in my opinion.

  3. The response from Rabbit is disappointing, but not particularly surprising to me, given the immense resistance of many people (not just Dianic pagans) to recognize transwomen as women.

    • It often seems to me that there’s an immense resistance of many people to recognize trans women as PEOPLE – look at how often people call us “it”.

  4. I’m at a point myself where I don’t know what to do or what to say. One of the issues seems to be the defining of explicit exclusions of trans women as an issue of religious freedom, which I sharply disagree with. That’s like saying that it’s unobjectionable for conservative Christians to attack gays and lesbians because that’s their religious freedom.

    Of late I’ve felt talked over and even ignored because my point of view is inconvenient.

  5. [...] seriously, Anya Kless responds to Yeshe Rabbit’s effort to clarify what happened at last year’s [...]

  6. I’m thrilled to the core that Rabbit “cannot condone speech that is filled with hate, neither against me nor on my behalf.” But if she really cannot condone this sort of speech, she needs to do something about it.

    People who really “cannot condone” Budapest’s hate rants need to refrain from inviting her to speak at their events. They may also need to consider disinviting people who choose to participate in her events, just as most sane Heathens I know would give the boot to groups who publicly make vile, racist comments. The right to speak as you choose does not and should not shield you from the consequences of your hateful words.

    But of course this would mean actually doing something, rather than just uttering soothing words. It would also mean confronting bigotry rather than implying the whole brouhaha was caused by transgender rabble-rousers looking for trouble. In other words it’s business as usual for the privileged white Pagans of the Bay Area. Now I remember why i stopped attending P’Con years before this particular turd hit the fan.

    • And I’ve just commented further at http://kenazfilan.blogspot.com/2011/10/lilith-rite-at-pantheacon-2011-redux.html

    • Kenaz,

      I spent quite a lot of time arguing with various Dianic Wiccans in the aftermath of CAYA’s Lilith ritual. My point was (broadly) that Dianic perpetuation of the narratives that underlie cisgender privilege (the main one being that transwomen are not women) is experienced by transwomen as oppression. As such, my view is that critique of their choice to exclude transwomen from Dianic circles is warranted and necessary.

      Having said that, I’m not sure I’m prepared to insist that all event organizers exclude Z, Ruth Barrett, Wendy Griffin, Amadea and others. As I wrote in response to Amadea several times, pluralism does not demand silence when worldviews conflict. Having said that, I also don’t believe that insisting on their exclusion from broadly inclusive events is necessarily the best policy. To be perfectly clear, I believe that the divide between women and transwomen claimed by some Dianic circles as “authentic” elides and erases the very real differences between the formative experiences of cisgendered women based on class, race, creed, geographic location, and immigration status (among others). I also believe that insisting on the authenticity of this divide is experienced by transwomen as oppression. Event organizers, however, should be free to invite (or not) presenters as they see fit. On the flip side, event organizers cannot be expected to enforce restrictions that are simply unenforceable – anyone expecting to hold a public cisgendered women-only ritual needs to be aware that there is literally no way to enforce that restriction. In my view, that’s the best balance we can reasonably expect to strike for the moment.

      • Califred: the question here is not so much about differences of opinion as about respectful ways of expressing those differences. There is controversy about whether “womyn-born-womyn” space is inherently oppressive. I would hope that there was no controversy about the need to treat other human beings with respect and avoid bigoted epithets like “transies” etc.

        Budapest insists on dehumanizing and abusing transpeople. Until such time as Budapest offers a public apology – not necessarily “I accept transwomen as women” but a simple “I apologize for any pain I may have caused by my poor choice of words and I respect the suffering which transwomen have endured” – I see no reason why she should be treated any differently than any other bigot. And those who invite her to speak or who participate at her events are letting it be known that these kind of nasty, vile statements about transpeople are acceptable – or at least not so unacceptable that they are actually willing to do anything about it.

      • Califred – it only takes a handful of unchallenged voices uttering trans-misogynistic opinions to make a “broadly inclusive” event completely exclusive of trans women. When ‘safe space’ for a majority of women comes at the expense of safety at all for a minority, that is a serious problem.

  7. ““WE DO ASK THAT ALL PARTICIPANTS AT AMAZON RITUALS BE ABLE TO BE NAKED AND ALLOW THEIR YONIS TO BE PRESENT IN THE RITUAL SPACE.””

    Culturally appropriating terms does not make this any better. 8|

    • “Able to be naked and allow their yonis to be present” translates roughly to “consents to be strip searched and, if necessary, probed”.

      • Actually more like “nudity-mandatory event for socially normative vaginas only.”

  8. First let me say that I;m solitary, and that I was born with two X chromosones and ID as a woman (I’m trying to be sure to explain without offending people here so excuse me if I’m clumbsy). I have wonderful woman friends who were born with an XY but ID as women and are amazing women. I have wonderful friends who were born as I was but ID as Men are are amazing Men.

    (I live in Massachusetts so maybe thats a little more open about this kind of thing I don’t know)

    I’m also going to use the term “You” as a collective you. I dont mean the poster of this article, or any of the commenters.

    (If I sound jumpy, I’ve seen way too many threads on this topic end up personal mudfights over what terms were used)

    I have personally never felt the need to exclude anyone male or female from my ritual space. I dont get it myself, I don’t “roll” that way. I do some private work on my own, but just never really got my head wrapped around the need to.

    However, I completely respect that some people and traditions do need that. I see this as a very complicated issue. Let me explain:

    To me its not complicated personally. As far as I’m concerned if you are a woman (I dont care what chromosones you were born with, if you are a woman in your own heart, mind, etc) then you’re a woman. Period. Same for men. I dont care whats between your legs.

    However, I have to look at this the same way I looked at something that happened in my hometown about a year ago. A lesbian teacher at a local catholic school was fired when she came out and married her partner here in Mass. It was disgraceful what was done to her, and many local catholics also stood up in her defence. I wrote letters to the paper on it. I joined a local protest in front of one of the main catholic churches with signs encouraging catholics to re-think their religions teaching on homosexuality. I’m heterosexual, but it was important to me because equal rights and human dignity for EVERYONE is important to me.

    But there is one thing I didn’t do. And that was join those demanding they hire her back.

    If I felt strong enough about it to freeze my butt off with 50 or so other people over it why the heck wouldn’t I do that?

    Simple. Its a religious school. Its a religion, and thats the stance the religion has taken. Now I hope it will evolve to go beyond that, change its mind, as I believe any healthy religion evolves. But it’s their belief, and its their right. The reason we have a seperation of church and state isn’t just to keep a religon from taking over the government (or trying to, as I think we’ve got a lot of religion in my government) but to also keep government out of religion.

    Otherwise, we open the door to allow anyone’s tradition a forced change. Imagine having someone outside your tradition walk in and say “Well you’re wrong, and this thing thats so important to how you think as a religious person is no longer allowed. You MUST do XYZ”

    I can’t see demanding that Dianic (or anyone else for that matter) covens and rituals be forced to accept trangendered people. I know people have said “Well what if it was a coven of white people saying no black people” and I would have to say the same.

    Because forcing a coven to do something they don’t believe- even if that belief is fundamentaly wrong in my opinion- I don’t think thats going to be terribly sucessful in making the point. More likely its going to make the group dig in harder- imagine being part of a ritual where 90% of the room is looking at you wanting you gone. Not the kind of space I think of as sacred.

    I believe Evolution is the key here. The evolution of how we think about these issues, which is why I believe talking and debating them is VITAL.

    In respect to the right of worship as one sees fit, however, I can’t go with the battering ram solution. I won’t support the idea of forcing people to confirm to a belief that runs counter to their religious practice in their religious space.

    I wont join your coven when you take a stance like that. I wont pay for you to speak at my library on paganism, or come to your conference and give you my time and money. I wont support you at all. I would hope pagans who feel as I do will not finacially or personally support groups that say that an XX chromosone or having a baby or having your period makes a woman. I think thats as bizzarely patricharcal as the whole “Holy pure mother or whore” thinking conservitive catholic anc chritian groups put on women.

    But I’m not going to beat down your door and demand you let anyone in. Its your religious path, In my opionion, Its a sad one, but its yours.

    I am however going to expect you to conform to non-doscrimination outside that path. If you’re running a secular buisness and you fire a person for being transgandered, I’m the first with a donation for a lawyer. If you harrass your gay neighbor, I’m calling the cops and I’m going to make sure you know I’m watching what you’re doing. And if you yell racial slurs at my african american neighbor, then I’m going to be on my porch, yelling at you to clear off.

    But I’m not going to make your church accept Interracial marriage, Same sex marriage, or transgendered women as women.

    In the meantime, any woman, no matter how they got there, can come and worship with me. And I hope that there are other circles that will follow the same, and I really hope they’ll be other Dianic circles that will as well.

    • I can’t even start to explain why THIS post in particular makes me want to curl up into a little ball of traumatized tears. But it does.

    • Now that I’ve got an hour or so from the crying…

      “But I’m not going to make your church accept Interracial marriage, Same sex marriage, or transgendered women as women.”

      One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn’t belong. Can you guess which thing is not like the others, by the time I finish this song?

      If you guessed “not accepting trans women as women,” you’re right. Why is this different? Because in the former cases, you are not accepting a relationship between two people as valid. Which is still inhumane and wrong, but not half as wrong or half as inhumane as the third, which is not accepting the person as valid. In the third case, you are allowing people to call trans women delusional, liars, rapists and worse, without challenge. You are being unprincipled, and calling it principle.

      If your religious principles prohibit you from rubbing a bigot’s nose in the steaming pile of their bigotry, YOU NEED NEW RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES.


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